[DaHollow]

Hey guys,

As many of you, I thought about remapping my 120d.

Ziptuning (Netherlands) is a very famous tuner and they offered an extra 35 horsepower and 100Nm of torque, bringing the total on: 198hp and 440Nm of torque.

Although almost every chiptuner will say that it's not bad for the engine and so on, I talked to a guy from BMW who has A LOT of technical background.

He told me:

Engine:

- Increasing the pressure in the rail system will damage the injectors;
- Blown up turbo's occur much more often than one thinks;
- Flywheel damage due to the extra torque:
- etc.

Clutch
- Every clutch has a "clutch plate" (sorry don't know the exact english term). BMW 1 series has 2 kinds <400Nm>400Nm. Basically every 1 series E87 has less than 400Nm clutch plates. So adding more torque will eventually damage your clutch plate.

The excuse

Every tuner will say to you "There will be no sign of extra wear IF YOU DRIVE IN A NORMAL MANNER".

So... What is "normal driving" ? It means that when you get a remap it's better you don't rev the engine to high and certainly not too much.

The facts are: extra power = faster driving = more personal drag races at the traffic lights = faster driving.

Some people can drive 100k km's with a remap, some blow their engine after some months.

The simple fact is: the car will wear with a remap.

Please no flaming.

Regards[/b][/u]

 

[DieselDog]

This is of course common sense. Increase power, you increase wear!!
But most engines are detuned to meet government taxes, so I believe that the wear on the 118d is less than 120d after remap or box tuning, because of the difference in numbers on Hk and NM, based on that these are all-most the same engine.

 

[MoneyFor1]

But most engines are detuned to meet government taxes, so I believe that the wear on the 118d is less than 120d after remap or box tuning, because of the difference in numbers on Hk and NM, based on that these are all-most the same engine.

Yes I taught so 2, what is the real difference between them... is it more in the gearbox , computer or really in the engine :?:

 

[texasjohn]

I would think that the only difference between the 118d and 120d is

- turbo
- ECU
- Intake system

Don't ask to me go any further than that because its just a guess based on logic. The point I'm trying to make is that the block, valvetrain, bottom end, gearbox and drivetrain to the wheels is probably exactly the same for the 118d and the 120d.

Therefore, I'd feel safer chipping a 118d than a 120d on that basis, because the extra torque if you chip the 120d may well take you beyond the design limits.

This of course doesnt rule out still knackering the turbo on a 118d if you were to chip it.

Because of CO2 getting more and more of an issue and taxes being based on this I can see things developing in the following manner...While it is easier to just buy a 120d with 175hp in the first place, a lot of people though are going to buy a 118d and chip to 175hp (or thereabouts) for tax reasons.

 

[MoneyFor1]

I would think that the only difference between the 118d and 120d is

- turbo
- ECU
- Intake system

Don't ask to me go any further than that because its just a guess based on logic. The point I'm trying to make is that the block, valvetrain, bottom end, gearbox and drivetrain to the wheels is probably exactly the same for the 118d and the 120d.

Therefore, I'd feel safer chipping a 118d than a 120d on that basis, because the extra torque if you chip the 120d may well take you beyond the design limits.

This of course doesnt rule out still knackering the turbo on a 118d if you were to chip it.

Thanks for the info.

Because of CO2 getting more and more of an issue and taxes being based on this I can see things developing in the following manner...While it is easier to just buy a 120d with 175hp in the first place, a lot of people though are going to buy a 118d and chip to 175hp (or thereabouts) for tax reasons.

This was exactly my reason 2 because the car is being driven by the wife it didn't need to be 120d ( tax reasons ) but a bit more power would be nice for me when I drive with it. So I was thinking of the Zip tuning also but I heard good replies on the tuning boxes. So I'm in doubt now.
My 118d have 136BHP instead of the 143 BHP and Ziptuning will go at 175 or so.

 

[DaHollow]

As far as I know the 118d is not just a limited 120d at all.

Why should the price difference be so high between the 118d and 120d if it was just another ECU?

 

[AndyM]

Correct the diff is different too. The engines are basically the same though.

 

[texasjohn]

As far as I know the 118d is not just a limited 120d at all.

Why should the price difference be so high between the 118d and 120d if it was just another ECU?

Because that is what the market will pay

Yes there may be other differences but I bet you the profit margin is higher on the higher priced cars. Even if just a small percentage.

A 130i does not cost 60% more to manufacture than a 116i, as an extreme example.

 

[DieselDog]

The differences I know about between 118d and 120d is as follows:
Gear ratio
Differential

Injectors
Turbo
ECU

Basically the engine is the same on 118d, 120, 123d.
The big difference between 120d and 123d is that 123d has twin turbo, and a little difference in diesel pressure.
All three engines are a 2L volume.

 

[dantheman]

Intercooler is different too, AFAIK.

 

[graham]

Gearbox
Diff
Common rail
turbo
ECU
Inter cooler

I think the basic engine is the same but this is not the issue.

Main issue for wear will be the gearbox.

The 120d is rated to 400NM I believe

Brakes are also different

Does the 123d have the same gearbox as the 120d?

I doubt it.

 

[graham]

You are right about increased wear though.

 

[Stinaris]

Just because the bore and stroke sizes are the same doesn't mean they are the same engine.

The VW Golf GT-TDI 130/150 are a case in point. Although "only" 20 bhp seperates them and they appear the same, just detuned, in fact the 150 has much stronger internals due to the large increase in torque/power over the 130.

Where do you get the idea we detune engines?!?!
This is what tuners say to justify their actions. It takes months to set the maps for a modern engine and tuners reckon they can get you more power in about an hour.
There are a lot of hugely experienced people in the automotive industry with huge experience of fluid dynamics, combustion etc etc. We have experts in each individual field.

But feel free to get one of these "tuners" to royally f*ck up your engine. It's not my engine after all.

If you want to accelerate faster, just fit smaller wheels and tyres. It's simply safe and reversible.

 

[RobHardyUK]

Stinaris - the internals are the same between the pd130 and pd150 VW units. That's an incorrect quote. The turbos are different between the PD130 and PD150, and the PD150 has a Front Mounted Intercooler instead of a smaller Side Mounted unit. Also a slightly different standard mapping to accommodate it. The guts are the same.

In regards to topic post - the tuners speaking here are quoting the obvious but making it sound much worse. To be honest - a bad driver in a non mapped car against a good driver in a re mapped car will cause more damage.

 

[EXgtiman]

Although I have yet to have a bmw chipped both my gt tdi golf have being chipped from new.

The 150 aniversary went to 223bhp, the clutch lasted 20,000 miles.

The 140 mk5 went to 210 bhp, the clutch and flywheel failed at 17,000 miles (duel mass flywheel), and the first turbo failed at 27,000 miles the second failing at 35,000 miles, fortunatly all has being done under warenty, as they cannt detect the re-map.

But it goes to show that the extra will allways find the weakest point to break, I was thinking about re-mapping the Bmw when it arrives but not sure :?:

 

[rsmallwo]

with supposed gains like those i'm not surprised the components failed.

150 to 223bhp, thats a 50% increase!!!!!

 

[mrash]

Where do you get the idea we detune engines?!?!

You are joking right? BMW say they do this themselves... the 118d is a detuned 120d... its the same at ford, jaguar, vw, etc etc Its cheaper to mass produce a powerful engine and detune it, than make different engines for different power outputs....

 

[Pilsbury]

Same deal with the 325d, 330d and 335d - they are all the same basic 3.0 engine, with differing turbo setups.

If you look at the US model lineup, you'll see that the x25i / x28i is the 'old' x30i engine...

 

[trevorrg22]

I've been thinking of fitting a Spider (from www dieseltuning co uk)
on my 120d but I am concerned that the engine might fail.

I never realised that a 118d/120d/123d were all the same sized engine.
So does that mean my 120d engine/clutch/turbo could cope with the
extra power ?

My main reason for wanting to fit the spider is just fuel economy - I'm not
really bothered about extra power as the 120d is much faster than my
previous car (Seat Toledo TDI 110bhp). At the moment I'm only getting
around 45mpg on a long run and I've read that a spider can add between
5 and 10 mpg. I do 120 miles a day so that would make a lot of difference.

Also, as my car is still under warranty (it's 3 years old but I bought from
a BMW dealer so it has a 1year BMW warranty) I thought if I were to fit
the spider I could remove it before the car had to go in for maintenance.

 

[rsmallwo]

some tuning companies will offer you "remaps" that are designed more for economy than performance, i think

http://www.angeltuning.co.uk

can do this.