Matt’s Road & Track m140

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Blind Pugh
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Re: Matt’s Road & Track m140

Post by Blind Pugh » Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:40 am

Matt Scarbro wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:13 am
I’ve been really enjoying the car I’ve the past few days, and on the somewhat arbitrary Matt’s subjective comparison to an M4 0 being a stock 140 and 10 an M4 CP scale I’d give it a 5 as things are! :lol:

The brakes feel like a weakness at the moment so you have to concentrate on braking too much which detracts from fluidity of the drive (what utter spiel :oops: ) and you can tell it needs setting up properly. The front end, though improved massively still doesn’t have the positivity and accuracy of the M4 and the rear is still not as planted.
Matt,

Hopefully, EPS feel/response and grip will get better once you have installed F8X front arms.

Wrt rear end becoming more planted, what have you got planned ? May I suggest:-

- tweak the camber, ride height and damping;
- then perhaps get adjustable RARB drop links - tweak roll stiffness;
- finally perhaps polybush rear ie inserts for diff mounts & s/frame and perhaps solid bushings for arms ?

What else are you planning brake-wise ? From 1st hand exp, I can recommend upper end F30 msport 370 disc/caliper upgrade c/w MPBBK coding - sorts out any hard use short comings when c/w good BF and pads....

BP
Last edited by Blind Pugh on Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Matt’s Road & Track m140

Post by marco_polo » Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:42 am

Matt Scarbro wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:13 am
I’ve been really enjoying the car I’ve the past few days, and on the somewhat arbitrary Matt’s subjective comparison to an M4 0 being a stock 140 and 10 an M4 CP scale I’d give it a 5 as things are! :lol:

The brakes feel like a weakness at the moment so you have to concentrate on braking too much which detracts from fluidity of the drive (what utter spiel :oops: ) and you can tell it needs setting up properly. The front end, though improved massively still doesn’t have the positivity and accuracy of the M4 and the rear is still not as planted.
I'm greatly enjoying/respecting your honesty. :thumbs: So often on forums, folks will make changes and announce they've all been 100% positive, and their car is now the best thing since xHamster.
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Re: Matt’s Road & Track m140

Post by topuphere666 » Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:46 am

Matt, are you heading to the meet at Glossop on Easter Saturday? I’m thinking of going over so could go in convoy!


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Re: Matt’s Road & Track m140

Post by MartijnGizmo » Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:19 am

I saw a big money M140i build on Facebook by German outfitter Laptime-Performance (Endless, Drexler, CAE, KW Clubsport, Recaro's in OEM upholstery etc). https://www.facebook.com/LaptimePerform ... 6859821184

What caught my attention was that they fitted uniballs to both the LCA and TS:

Image

Even changing just the TS (what they advise starting with) is supposed to make a big difference on feel during braking and steering. They are listed for F2x, F8x, M2, M4, GTS, CS at € 429. I did some more googling on US-forums, as there seem to be quite some owners tracking their M235i or M2/3/4, but couldn't really find any user experiences regarding uniball LCA/TS's.

Image

Image

There do seem to be other solutions around for M-models: https://www.bimmerworld.com/BimmerWorld ... ing_2.html Also Dinan seems to be selling something similar.

Ok, seems I just needed to do better googling (monoball instead of uniball), here's another one, that's actually sealed for street use: https://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-3950 ... l-upgrade/

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Re: Matt’s Road & Track m140

Post by THETYRANT » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:25 am

Matt Scarbro wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:13 am
I’ve been really enjoying the car I’ve the past few days, and on the somewhat arbitrary Matt’s subjective comparison to an M4 0 being a stock 140 and 10 an M4 CP scale I’d give it a 5 as things are! :lol:

The brakes feel like a weakness at the moment so you have to concentrate on braking too much which detracts from fluidity of the drive (what utter spiel :oops: ) and you can tell it needs setting up properly. The front end, though improved massively still doesn’t have the positivity and accuracy of the M4 and the rear is still not as planted.
I think you need to get the Geo checked/set before going any further really as that could be all it needs to get it all working as it should, sounds like good progress has been made but getting all wheels pointing the correct way will help a lot with the "feel" of the setup.
Brakes wise you know the solution to that one ;) ... or there are some DS Uno in for sale which are meant to be pretty good but ive not tried them myself.

If your passing cumbria on your run out might see you if im out and about, i would put your winters back on though!
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Re: Matt’s Road & Track m140

Post by jammapic » Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:06 am

marco_polo wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 2:57 pm
deanw wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:09 am
Also been asked a million times but do the lowering springs make a decent improvement on handling or are they more cosmetic on these cars.
Stiffer springs can make handling better, lower springs can make things worse - although adding a little front negative camber (via lowering a McPherson set-up) can be useful sometimes.

Do lots of homework on Roll Centre if you're interested in why lowering a production car excessively can be counter-productive, but basically you want the roll centre and CoG to be as close as possible.

Image
Finally... someone speaking sense about handling on M140i! :-)

This is THE biggest problem with the 1 series chassis, the roll centres are absolutely terrible... If you actually calculate / mark them, you would be astounded how out of kilter the whole thing is (not teaching you how to suck eggs if you have already done this!)..

A few companies have modified the pick up points, and thus the roll centres, for racing in M135i chassis cars to try and correct the roll centres... I was up at a friends rolling road the other day where he had a DTM 24hr 135i (N54) in, proper job - and the front / rear subframes were COMPLETELY different.

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Re: Matt’s Road & Track m140

Post by marco_polo » Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:14 am

Yeah, still amazes me that Chav's assume lower = better, it's as if nobody knows the first flipping thing about cars/suspension.

Subframe mods are definitely the best way of correcting the Roll Centre, I've also seen Ball Joint Extenders - but I've seen broken Ball Joint Extenders too.
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Re: Matt’s Road & Track m140

Post by jammapic » Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:22 am

marco_polo wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:14 am
Yeah, still amazes me that Chav's assume lower = better, it's as if nobody knows the first flipping thing about cars/suspension.

Subframe mods are definitely the best way of correcting the Roll Centre, I've also seen Ball Joint Extenders - but I've seen broken Ball Joint Extenders too.
Never been a fan of balljoint extenders; as you say... more moment about the pivot point is only going to end one way.

The RIGHT way is to modify the pickup, and try and return the arm to it's correct (or even better, a modified) position... sadly, it's not always practical.

My wife's M240i is on stock suspension, and stock ride height; and the handling is far far better than our other test car, the M140i, which is on H&R lowered springs.

If you measure the roll centres; that's partly the problem... but also, the lack of traction at the rear or a 1 series vs. that of one with a 'boot' (i.e. the 2 series) is really noticeable... Those extra few inches really make a difference. :o
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Re: Matt’s Road & Track m140

Post by Samp4856 » Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:47 pm

marco_polo wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:14 am
Yeah, still amazes me that Chav's assume lower = better, it's as if nobody knows the first flipping thing about cars/suspension.

Subframe mods are definitely the best way of correcting the Roll Centre, I've also seen Ball Joint Extenders - but I've seen broken Ball Joint Extenders too.
i mean thats not Chav's on some cars lower does mean better, for example the mk3 mazda mx5, lowing it so that the wishbones sit level to the ground upper and lower from memory its something like 27mm lower it makes a hugh difference to cornering and grip during said corner, however the issue is people assume what works on one car works on another.
M140 Shadow edition manual lots of goodies! :spotman:
Stage 1 map 428bhp 616nm

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Re: Matt’s Road & Track m140

Post by Matt Scarbro » Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:21 pm

Blind Pugh wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:40 am
Matt,

Hopefully, EPS feel/response and grip will get better once you have installed F8X front arms.

Wrt rear end becoming more planted, what have you got planned ? May I suggest:-

- tweak the camber, ride height and damping;
- then perhaps get adjustable RARB drop links - tweak roll stiffness;
- finally perhaps polybush rear ie inserts for diff mounts & s/frame and perhaps solid bushings for arms ?

What else are you planning brake-wise ? From 1st hand exp, I can recommend upper end F30 msport 370 disc/caliper upgrade c/w MPBBK coding - sorts out any hard use short comings when c/w good BF and pads....

BP
Thanks for the ideas for rear end fettling BP, initial plans are minimal, though as you suggest the underbody brace and an alignment are at the top of the to do list. I’m also playing with shock absorber adjustment and front to rear balance to figure out what works best.

Adjustable drop links sound like something to be explored, I hadn’t thought of that! I have toyed with the idea of dropping the spring rate a little if I decide it needs it though, perhaps to 10kg/mm from the current 12.

With regards to the brakes and to a degree some of the more involved chassis upgrades, there is a point at which I can’t justify too much additional expenditure. I had always planned most of the mods I’ve done so far and considered roughly what I’ve spent so far to make the 140 a good value for money choice. One thing I won’t be doing is spending much more and turning this into a 1
Series that’s cost as much as a comparable M2!! :lol:

So for the brakes I’m confident that with a proper track pad it will work just fine at the track, and I’m hopeful that I can find some better feel too (again I think the old discs are to blame here).
M140i road & track project

‘66 M140i Black 3dr Auto, 459bhp
Lots of chassis mods to make it useable!

Other fun stuff — MX2000 ‘charged Honda-powered MX5 / ITB’d vvt-swapped MX5 / CR-X Si vtec swapped

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Re: Matt’s Road & Track m140

Post by Matt Scarbro » Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:29 pm

MartijnGizmo wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:19 am
Interesting stuff about sexy uniball/monoball bearings in LCAs and TS’
That’s some nice engineering going on there, interesting that those are improvements to the proper M cars!!

As I mention above, this likely falls into the category of taking things too far for this car. My plan is to make the most of a sub-M car for what I consider to be sensible money. If I get 70% of the way to bridging the gap I’ll be overjoyed, but I don’t want to end up spending M car money for something that will never be an M car! :thumbs:
M140i road & track project

‘66 M140i Black 3dr Auto, 459bhp
Lots of chassis mods to make it useable!

Other fun stuff — MX2000 ‘charged Honda-powered MX5 / ITB’d vvt-swapped MX5 / CR-X Si vtec swapped

Circuit:Driver YouTube

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Re: Matt’s Road & Track m140

Post by Matt Scarbro » Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:31 pm

topuphere666 wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:46 am
Matt, are you heading to the meet at Glossop on Easter Saturday? I’m thinking of going over so could go in convoy!


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Hello mate, I haven’t planned to as I might go away somewhere that weekend. But I’ll keep it in mind if I don’t.

Good to catch up sometime with the cars regardless! :)
M140i road & track project

‘66 M140i Black 3dr Auto, 459bhp
Lots of chassis mods to make it useable!

Other fun stuff — MX2000 ‘charged Honda-powered MX5 / ITB’d vvt-swapped MX5 / CR-X Si vtec swapped

Circuit:Driver YouTube

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Re: Matt’s Road & Track m140

Post by Matt Scarbro » Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:38 pm

THETYRANT wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:25 am
I think you need to get the Geo checked/set before going any further really as that could be all it needs to get it all working as it should, sounds like good progress has been made but getting all wheels pointing the correct way will help a lot with the "feel" of the setup.
Brakes wise you know the solution to that one ;) ... or there are some DS Uno in for sale which are meant to be pretty good but ive not tried them myself.

If your passing cumbria on your run out might see you if im out and about, i would put your winters back on though!
You’re spot on of course regarding the need for a proper alignment Ian, I’m just trying to avoid doing so multiple times and the cost adding up. The LCAs and underbody brace will go on very shortly and I’ll get it set up at the same time.

I do indeed know what the proper solution is on the brake front! I’m still umming and ahhing, but of course a set of CTs are on the short list. I appreciate the lack of hard-sell on your part, very refreshing and you know that I have first hand experience of what your products can and will do! :thumbs:

Ah yes and I should have put the winters back on for the trip up north... something I said quite a few times straddling snow in the middle of the road and aquaplaning through huge puddles!! :oops:
M140i road & track project

‘66 M140i Black 3dr Auto, 459bhp
Lots of chassis mods to make it useable!

Other fun stuff — MX2000 ‘charged Honda-powered MX5 / ITB’d vvt-swapped MX5 / CR-X Si vtec swapped

Circuit:Driver YouTube

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Re: Matt’s Road & Track m140

Post by Matt Scarbro » Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:51 pm

Samp4856 wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:47 pm
marco_polo wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:14 am
Yeah, still amazes me that Chav's assume lower = better, it's as if nobody knows the first flipping thing about cars/suspension.

Subframe mods are definitely the best way of correcting the Roll Centre, I've also seen Ball Joint Extenders - but I've seen broken Ball Joint Extenders too.
i mean thats not Chav's on some cars lower does mean better, for example the mk3 mazda mx5, lowing it so that the wishbones sit level to the ground upper and lower from memory its something like 27mm lower it makes a hugh difference to cornering and grip during said corner, however the issue is people assume what works on one car works on another.
Interesting discussion about roll centre (correction) and ride heights, honestly not something I’d given massive of consideration too beyond the good practice of keeping things fairly close to standard on a road car (that’s how it’s designed to work).

A very valid point from Sam, being part of the hairdressing society myself I can attest that they work best when you completely mess up the roll centre and drop them in their arse!! :lol:
It’s rather a different suspension layout though so a useful reminder that what works on one car, might not work on another!

Interesting comparison thoughts from Jammapic with standard and lowered mx40is. I’d be tempted to put that more down to the 1/2 series, I’ve always found the 2 to feel more planted and a better drive as a result. In my case though the tailgate, practicality and sizeable cost difference made the 140 the clear choice despite this.

It seems the sensible ‘solution’ is to retain a very conservative drop in ride height, probably not the best pic, but this is what I arrived at on my car...
M140i road & track project

‘66 M140i Black 3dr Auto, 459bhp
Lots of chassis mods to make it useable!

Other fun stuff — MX2000 ‘charged Honda-powered MX5 / ITB’d vvt-swapped MX5 / CR-X Si vtec swapped

Circuit:Driver YouTube

Matt Scarbro
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Re: Matt’s Road & Track m140

Post by Matt Scarbro » Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:52 pm

Image
M140i road & track project

‘66 M140i Black 3dr Auto, 459bhp
Lots of chassis mods to make it useable!

Other fun stuff — MX2000 ‘charged Honda-powered MX5 / ITB’d vvt-swapped MX5 / CR-X Si vtec swapped

Circuit:Driver YouTube

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